I seldom delve into the world of politics on this blog. That’s not why I write and do my “armchair journalism” here at Along the Shore. Not that I don’t have political opinions! I do. I simply try to keep my focus on spiritual, pastoral, denominational, and church planting issues.
But the issue of the Iraq War is heavy on my mind and heart. This is especially true today, as I see that the House leadership is pushing to attach a withdrawal deadline to the current funding package for the war effort.
Where should we, as Christians, “land” with regard to this subject? I must admit that I have been, for the most part, a supporter of President Bush’s policies with regard to the war to end terror. Indeed, I originally thought that the Iraq invasion was a “stroke of genius.” Instead of fighting terrorists on our streets, our soldiers and marines (armed and trained for battle) would be fighting terrorists in the streets of Iraq once it became an epicenter of Islam’s war against western civilization.
But as the conflict drags on, I just don’t know. I live in a military community, in the shadow of Ft. Campbell, Kentucky. We recently lost several local service members in a helicopter crash in Afghanistan. The husband of a very close friend and co-worker of one of my church members was KIA in Iraq less than two weeks ago. The reports and statistics that many people just hear on TV every night hit “close to home” for us.
I know men who have been “on the ground” in Iraq. I have spoken with them. I have a very close friend in my church in he Army reserve, a mother of two small children, who has already completed one tour and is staring at the possibility of another. Altogether, their first-hand reports from their experiences are not glowing. It’s not that our people and our soldiers are not doing their best. The ultimate issue is whether the Iraqi people really want what we have to offer … freedom, capitalism, and, ultimately, peace.
One soldier-friend described the Iraqi military as “untrainable” by American standards. Indeed, they resist reinforcement training … doing the same task over and over again until it becomes “second nature.” That is the mainstay of American military training and instruction. In their apparent arrogance, Iraqi trainees do not seem to want to be told or shown somethng more than once. Little wonder there is an insufficient number of trained Iraqi units “on the ground.”
Another soldier described the situation in Islamic countries where American forces are engaged in this way: He said … “Our presence in these places is like sticking your hand in a bucket of water. While your hand is in the bucket, it changes things in the bucket … but once you remove your hand (i.e. “leave”) there will be no evidence that you were ever there.”
That statement really made me think. Are we still accomplishing anything, really? As the death toll has climbed over 3,100, and the wounded total nears 24,000, I wonder even more.
Many of us sought comfort in the early days of the Iraq conflict in a “doctrine of just war.” I defended that view on multiple occasions. But does such a doctrine still apply? Will there ever be that magic moment when we, as a nation and a people, have done everything that we can do? And will we know when that moment happens?
Or, maybe, has it already passed?
I just don’t know. But as a conservative, former military, God-loving, flag-waving, Hooah! Jesus follower and pastor, I just don’t know.
How should we respond to our church members and friends who ask the “hard questions” with regard to Iraq?Are other Christians and pastors struggling with this as I am right now? I need to know. I hope some of you respond.
March 8, 2007 at 1:59 pm
Geoff,
I struggle with this too. Where are the WMD’s? I am very conservative and a Reagan man through and through but this war stinks. So do all of the potential candidates for Prez.
I wish a Godly man or woman would step up to lead our country.
March 8, 2007 at 2:59 pm
there is a godly man running for pres. but he probably doesnt stand too good of a chance of winning. gov. mike huckabee….i cant remember how to spell his last name. i hope that was right. he was the gov. of arkansas. he was running last i knew, unless something has changed. he was a southern baptist pastor before becoming gov. of arkansas.
david
March 8, 2007 at 3:12 pm
Really David,
http://www.mikehuckabee.com/
Sounds like the same old same old to me.
March 8, 2007 at 6:46 pm
Good call, Kevin. The same goes for Sam Brownback [R-KS]. Yawn. Toeing the Repub line. They have no electable candidates.
Geoff, I have struggled long and hard on this one as well. I am no supporter of the president in this war. I may be the lone voice of opposition here, but I’ve stood alone before. Oh well.
And with the scandal at Walter Reed right now, I get more frustrated.
I originally supported the war, but as it has dragged on, no WMD’s were ever found, and the justification just seems to be “Because I’m the Commander in Chief and I said so.” And since the president refuses to accept any criticism or admit any fault, I cringe at the thought of sending thousands more troops into a hopeless situation. Just because he says so.
There is not an easy answer to resolve it. The endgame? Frightening any way it pans out. Nobody will “win” if there is such a thing.
March 9, 2007 at 7:44 am
kevin,
do you know of a better candidate to get behind? i do know that gov. huckabee has pretty well stood on conservative issues. he is a conservative, southern baptist who would agree with us on the main issues. he is pro life and anti gay agenda. he would also be pro christian and would definitely share our judeo-christian morals and values. can you think of any other candidate that would fit that? he may not be perfect, but i doubt that that bird exists.
david
March 9, 2007 at 8:28 am
As I understand, what is the truly biblical and Christian point of view on such issues as “just war” and political involvement in a democratic society in general, is a very complex question. Personally, as a pre-millenialist (not saying others who are not pre-millenial would not necessarily be in agreement as well), I don’t envision anything close to spiritual, moral or ethical utopia on earth until Jesus returns to set up His kingdom.
Realistically, as Christians, we have the same responsbility given to humankind at creation to be stewards of the earth. I think it is also good to do our part to work towards peace and general equity for the peoples of the world, (i.e. human rights in general). However, we should always be suspicious of anyone who poses as Christ’s representative to usher in His kingdom on earth. This includes the government of the United States. I believe we should be skeptical of any worldview that holds us as Americans up as the “saviors of the world” or as God-ordained guardians of world order and peace. I believe that, this side of Christ’s return, those regimes and societies that present themselves as “God’s anointed” have the most potential of abusing that “responsibility” and, in the end, causing the most harm.
Even though we live in a very sinful and morally defective world, I think the best alternative (or the least of the evils) is a system of checks and balances in which no one regime or society wields too much power on the world scene.
As such, my biggest problem with the Iraq war from the beginning has been the lack of support from the international community at large. As American Christians, we too easily let ourselves be convinced that our government and society is morally superior to those of the rest of the world, and thus has some sort of God-ordained right to go against the wishes and positions of the rest.
One of the biggest problems with this, from the point of view of those of us who give a high priority to world evangelism, is the message we as American evangelicals communicate to the rest of the world, when they see us as aligned behind those promoting the concept of American moral superiority, and right to unilaterally wage war on others, despite objections from the rest of the world. For many, it is a morally indefensible position, and it undermines the moral and ethical credibility of the message we preach.
I also see many parallels to the situation of the early Church and their relationship with Constantine, and the American conservative evangelicalism and their relationship to Bush, and, in general, the Republican Party. I think the Republican party has more to gain from us than we do from them. And too close of an alliance poses some real threats to our prophetic identity and integrity.
March 9, 2007 at 8:38 am
David,
I’m not saying I wouldn’t vote for him. I’m just saying no one exictes me. There is no candidate that has a vision for making the world better. Reagan did that for me. No one has since.
March 9, 2007 at 9:03 am
David Rogers-
I agree with you, in that there will be no “peace on earth” until Christ reigns here. Too often we Christians are so busy trying to change the world when it is not our job.
God’s Word does tell us to pray for our leaders and to “render unto Caesar that which is Caesar’s”. In that respect, I often fall short in the prayer department. It’s way to easy to criticize the man behind the desk in the oval office than it is to pray for him. That is our job!
Re: the War in Iraq
No matter what we think of the war or the reasons for it, God can and will use it for His purposes (as He has used war in the past). Our job is to pray for both our own men and women who are fighting there…and for the enemies they face every day. Didn’t Jesus die for them, too?
There are many things I cannot change, but I can pray for change.
Will you pray today for my former son-in-law, Brent, and for Daniel, the son of a friend? Both are stationed just outside of Bagdad.
Kat
March 9, 2007 at 10:35 am
Hello, All!
I’ve been away this morning … giving a 9-weeks exam to my 8th Grade Earth Science students. Woo hoo.
Good comments, all.
Kevin,
I,too, am still looking for someone I can support wholeheartedly.
David (volfan),
I’m still doing some research into Huckabee. But I’m having some “flashbacks” thinking about our last Southern Baptist president from Arkansas.
Tony,
I wouldn’t read too much into the Walter Reed situation. I am convinced that this entire thing is a political set-up. All I have seen is barracks with peeling paint, holes in the wall, and mildew in the showers. Big surprise. Sounds like pretty much every army barracks I ever stayed in. Rest assured, our guys are getting good care … the best of any military in the world. But it is still the Army. Army medical care still looks like the Army.
David R,
Welcome back. Interesting thoughts. Though, with the level of economic envy that exists worldwide with regard to the U.S., I don’t think you can count on much international support for any policy decisions made or positions taken by the United States. People all over are pretty smart. I think they can separate uns individual Americans from the collective of the U.S. government. Indeed, I have traveled internationally since 2001 … I have never been treated with disdain, or had my motives questioned as a believer.
Kat,
) in harm’s way.
Of course, you and David are right. We cannot expect anything that resembles peace until Christ’s return. Meanwhile, we must make due as best we can, and “render unto Caesar what is Caesar’s…”
I think we all need to pray for all our boys (and, regrettably, girls … but that’s another topic for another day
March 9, 2007 at 4:07 pm
geoff,
lol. i know….the gov. from arkansas is cause for concern.:)
kevin,
i agree that no one excites me like reagan did, and no one has really excited me since reagan. i agree with you. it’s been a matter of voting for the least damaging guy for me. i think thats where we’re at right now.
david
March 9, 2007 at 4:10 pm
Could it be that a Mormon, Mitt Romney, could very well be a valid choice for us in 2008?
March 9, 2007 at 4:22 pm
geoff for president!!!!!!!!!!!
and, for his running mate, in order to get the old people’s votes…cb scott for vp!!!!
sorry cb. i just think that you fit the dick cheney mold.
david
March 9, 2007 at 5:44 pm
Geoff (and Kat),
I think that people around the world may be even smarter than what we want to give them credit for. Many are aware that conservative evangelicals are one of Bush’s main voter bases, thus enabling and sharing responsibility for Bush’s foreign policy. While many may treat you cordially as an individual on short-term visits overseas that does not necessarily mean our overall witness is not suffering a credibility crisis. Perhaps Europe is an extreme case in point. But, in the past several years, the majority of the countries in South America are becoming more and more anti-American as well.
I am sure living oversees has influenced my views on these subjects. When the whole situation in Iraq first began to make headlines, my tendency was to give Bush the benefit of the doubt, knowing world politics was too complicated for me to understand, and believing he was a good Christian man, with honorable intentions. More and more, though, I have become convinced we, as Christians, don’t need to give Bush, or any politician, a free pass.
At the same time, I am concerned about our responsibility to finish what we started, and not leaving Iraq in a situation of total chaos. And I am very concerned for the safety and welfare of our soldiers, as well as for that of all of those, from whatever side, who stand in harm’s way. I do pray for peace on earth, and for our soldiers, including especially a son of one of my best friends here on the mission field as well.
March 9, 2007 at 7:20 pm
David (v-fan),
Besides, once my sermon videos hit the TV, it would be all over …
I considered running … but I couldn’t think of anyone who would pay $25,000 a plate to have dinner with me.
David R.,
I do think that Europe is an extreme case. I can’t help but think the European disdain toward the U.S. is grounded in the fact that it is now comprised of (and led by?) a generation that is separated from the reality and memory of WW II. Indeed, that debt of gratitude to the U.S. seems to have long been forgotten. You know the old saying, “They would all be speaking German if it weren’t for the red, white, and blue.”
I think the South American situation is grounded in the resurging tendency toward Marxism.
But, seriously David … the entire population of the third world that knows of America dreams of coming to America. That has not changed. I doubt it ever will. It never ceases to amaze me how the Muslims, especially, can hate us so and pray to Allah for our destruction … yet still want to come here and take our money.
I agree that we have to complete the job in Iraq. I just don’t know if we’ll actually know when the job is complete … when we’ve done everything we can do. Honestly, if the people of that nation and culture are hell-bent on violence and chaos (which they obviously seem to be), then my personal opinion is rapidly moving toward the sentiment that we should pack up, come home, and let them “have at it.”
The problem comes when the terrorists are no longer occupied in Iraq and Afghanistan … I’m confident they will begin to infiltrate our shores and start blowing up their car bombs in our streets.
So, what do we do?
March 9, 2007 at 7:30 pm
Geoff: lands alive…I’m more inclined to go for Mitt than any other at the moment. I’m still praying for a miracle to come popping into the spectrum. Wouldn’t it be great if some radically right-winged conservative led Mitt to saving grace and we got us a bonafide family-oriented Christian in the White House?
I like Bush. I hate war. I hate the oppression of the Iraq people and other countries living under the rule of dictators. I can’t stand what is going on in Darfur and wish Bush could do what the commercials seem to think he is capable of doing–get the UN to do their job. I sure wouldn’t want Bush’s job.
I, too, have friends in Iraq and Aghanistan. Oh that we could help those poor oppressed people. I truly believe the Christian influence of the good we are accomplishing on a one-on-one basis with Iraqis will be the firstfruits of things to come. I pray for eyes to be opened, hearts to be touched and God’s Spirit to dwell among them. And God being Who He is, I’m sure He will work all things together for His glory. We may not see it from our viewpoint and position. But God has it all under control. Including the upcoming occupants of Pennsylvania Avenue. Grace everyone! selahV
March 9, 2007 at 8:20 pm
It would be wonderful to know that the one we elect as President was a Christian with honorable intentions, but nowhere are we guaranteed that honorable intentions are infallible. Good men sometimes make wrong choices…even when they don’t realize it. They cannot read the future.
Many Christians seem to believe that our government can be “reformed” and that Christian principles can rule our country. That is not supported by Scripture, as far as I know. The only theocracy the Word says we can expect to see is that of Christ literally ruling on the earth. Before that, there will be wars and rumors of wars.
Maranatha!
March 9, 2007 at 9:09 pm
SelahV,
I share the desire to help the poor, oppressed peoples of the world … as long as they want the help. Suicide bombs, car bombs, roadside bombs, bomb factories, weapons caches, sectarian Muslim violence … I realize I’m no military strategist, but more and more it sounds to me like these people really don’t want any more of our “help.” I dunno…
Kat,
Sadly, I agree. Most of the time we must settle for the best we can get when it comes to our political leaders.
March 10, 2007 at 4:38 pm
Geoff,
For many in the third world, Europe is now the immigration destination choice of preference. The book “The European Dream” has some interesting things to say about this.
From a secular human point of view, we might want what is best for the prosperity and advance of the interests of America in the world. But from a Christian point of view, I don’t think we can so easily dismiss the suffering and hardship in other countries, even if their political and/or religious ideology goes completely against our own. Yes, Iraq was not anything close to paradise for many people under Sadam Hussein. And it is certainly a good thing that his regime is a thing of the past. But, there are now situations in Iraq that are the direct result of American intervention. I think that brings along with it some amount of moral responsibility to help work towards workable solutions. Personally, I think a big part of this means being willing to share more leadership in world affairs with other countries. Sure, many in other countries are corrupt and/or inefficient. But I still think too much power in the hands of one country is not a good thing.
March 10, 2007 at 5:32 pm
Geoff,
I blown away that that you could think poor vet care is a political set up.
Quit listening to the talking heads on Fox and start listening to the soldiers and their families. What reason do these men and women have to lie? You’re right that their used to a variable quality of accommodation and you’re right that the immediate life saving care they receive is the best in history. Apologists who have no idea what it is to face long term, chronic medical problems need to get their head out the sand and see that the care of our countries finest has been contracted out to for-profit companies that answer to their stockholders before they answer to the patients and their families.
March 10, 2007 at 5:53 pm
Charles,
Welcome to “The Shore.” I wish I could have “met” you under other circumstances. It seems that my (I confess) uninformed opinion has offended you. For that I am sincerely sorry.
I did not suggest that “poor vet care” in and of itself is a political set-up. Just the way that it has come to light, and the way that everyone seems to be “scurrying for cover” or getting in line to pile misery upon the military and present administration. I merely stated that the entire thing sounds, looks, and “smells” like a political set-up to me. Members of both political parties from both houses of congress are literally a “stone’s throw” from Walter Reed. With all of their visits, you would think that our vigilant leaders would have seen something before now. That’s my point.
I don’t know all of the details, and wouldn’t pretend to. I can only comment on what I have seen on all of the networks … peeling paint and mildew. Those things do not surprise me, as an Army veteran.
But if, indeed, things are as bad as our vets are claiming, heads should roll. I’m with you on that brother.
March 29, 2007 at 12:35 pm
Dear Geoff, I am very blessed and thankful to have found a Christian that will talk about this! I feel I should give you a smidgen about me before I emulate further! I accepted Jesus Christ at a very young age just before I quit smoking pot/drinking and the like and my parents made me join the military. Everything seems to have a story behind it but I want to address your concern. I ironically joined the marines at 17 years old my folks had to sign for me. I barley graduated High School and almost didn’t go because of a girl. I didn’t date much in school and only had a couple girlfriends so I look back now and know it was my parent’s prayers and our Lord, always keeping me in the palm of his hand that prevailed. I served 17 years active duty in the Marines (and I was Infantry, A Grunt Sergeant when I got out, in fact I was a Sergeant 8 of the 14 yeas I was in the Corps.) I then joined the National Guard and retired as an E-7 Sergeant First Class! I am now currently a Patrol Officer former SWAT Team member “Explosive Breacher” and Range officer for Madison County Indiana. I work third shift and have been a Cop now for almost 12 years! So with all that said you know way more about me than most would honestly tell, but that’s ok, in that now you know why I feel I do have a right to an opinion and maybe some in site too. Having been around the world two times (And most certainly not on vacation) I can tell you “I am discussed and ashamed with almost all Christians in this Country!” We are spoiled spoiled, spoiled and blessed for now! I became real close to God/through Jesus in Okinawa Japan “Camp Hanson” with missionary’s there Drew and Shelly Arliskas. I am sorry I have lost touch with them now! And allot of that closeness I once had I’m afraid , though my wife of 22 years does have me going to Bible Study each Wednesday now “The Mind of Christ” is our study by T.W Hunt & Claude V. King.. Anyways we started out with about 25 attending 6 months ago and are now down to about 12! I read almost all of the responses you have received regarding IRAQ. Our own Pastor “Jerry” doesn’t like to get into this too much either and I know why! I voted for our President both times and would vote for him again if he could run! Granted, I am sure he has a nest egg to fall back on should he be impeached! But he is staying the course “No WMDS” were found…So what! To the person who made that statement did you fight in Dessert Storm and Shield with the Marines. I venture to say, (No) “So I fought for that misled opinion!” And that is not what this is about; Our President might be the closest thing this Country ever sees to a “Godly Man” who stays the course. And America is tired of this War, I am so thankful our Lord never tires of us However he does have emotion! And abit of anger is about in store for this Country! “You don’t cut off funds to the troops or give a time line for withdrawal…..Oh you Spoiled with No spines!” You don’t under mind the commander and chief because the majority of spoiled and lazy Americans have voted you into office! But you do! And will continue to do so, That is please the majority to keep your job and rake in the almighty $. And so He sighed deeply in spirit, and said,”Why does this generation seek a sign!” And he left them! And you don’t support Gays and Lesbians and Abortion either! Also our oldest boy SPC Michael J. Hall just returned from Afghanistan for a few months soon to be redeployed to Iraq I am led to believe! Yes I know Geoff abit harsh, that’s why most successful pastors don’t like to preach about it much! (It makes the Majority of the spoiled un-comfortable and sometimes very mad too!) Oh to all please don’t drive over 10 mph over the posted speed limit, that’s all I give (.) I was also wondering did any of you go down to Jefferson Parish New Orleans just after Katrina and see what we did and saw! I again venture to say (No). So I will close in saying allot of you just really need to….well I shouldn’t finish that statement, Forgive me Lord! God Bless and pray for me as I will you! I need a lot of it but many need more! And some Godly Therapy which I do administer theses days usually with Pepper Spray, a Gun or Tazer! Then I let the Courts give Therapy! Which is a Big Money Maken $ Joke! His Grace should be sufficient but for America which I love and fight for I am very afraid for the new majority and a lot of so called Christians! Respectfully Greg
March 29, 2007 at 2:37 pm
Greg,
Welcome to “Along the Shore.” I hope that you will return often. Your testimony and your views are welcome here.
So, I assume that you still support the present policy and our continued presence in Iraq?
BTW … you just won the award for all-time longest comment in a thread.
Geoff
March 30, 2007 at 8:49 am
Thank you Geoff, for the warm welcome to “Along the Shore”. But please, back to your struggle/and concern! I listen to NPR (National Public Radio) IPR, BBC, Morning Music How, Waves, and Prairie Home Companion etc! Almost all the time! “A Marine Thing” keeping up on World Events while on Patrol etc! We were made to do it when I was in the Corps! It is important, especially since now IRAN has made a serious move against our strongest Allie Brittan/England and the European Union… that is also abit Ironic! Brave heart comes to mind, and History! And now there is this big thing with the firing of allot of Federal Prosecutors! Whelp I can only say when you are the President of the “United States”, You (With Prayer) Fire those that will or believe will turn against you! And by his office “Very High” He has the right to do so! And any testimonies given whether cohersed $ and or give now are at our Elected Presidents generosity! Also please try to understand that after 22 years in the Military…most of us Soldiers are Republican! Don’t know how many times I voted: Absentee Ballot! Republicans don’t close down bases and cut your funds and repeat Vietnam! But Gas Prices are soon to sore I am afraid! So the Battle is on and Prayer is needed greatly! Very Tuff Struggle that’s for sure! In closing Geoff! As hard as it is! I do support what WE are doing! But also know its only pre-longing the inevitable = Very bad things for this Country of Ours! John 3:16 But very much in his will! Not yours or me! Respectfully Greg aka Katargethe Ephapax!
April 12, 2007 at 11:18 am
The Brick!!! Read It.
Read this today and don’t delete it if you are too busy!! You’ll see.
THE BRICK
A young and successful executive was traveling down a neighborhood street, going a bit too fast in his new Jaguar. He was watching for kids darting out from between parked cars and slowed down
when he thought he saw something. As his car passed, no children appeared. Instead, a brick smashed into the Jag’s side door! He slammed on the brakes and backed the Jag back to the spot where the brick had been thrown. The angry driver then jumped out of the car, grabbed the nearest kid and pushed him up against a parked car shouting, “What was that all about and who are you? Just what
the heck are you doing? That’s a new car and that brick you threw is going to cost a lot of money. Why did you do it?” The young boy was apologetic.
“Please, mister…please, I’m sorry but I didn’t know what else to do,” He pleaded. “I threw the brick because no one else would stop…” With tears dripping down his face and off his chin, the youth pointed to a spot just around a parked car. “It’s my brother, “he said. “He rolled off the curb and fell out of his wheelchair and I can’t lift him up.”
Now sobbing, the boy asked the stunned executive, “Would you please help me get him back into his wheelchair? He’s hurt and he’s too heavy for me.”
Moved beyond words, the driver tried to swallow the rapidly swelling lump in his throat. He hurriedly lifted the handicapped boy back into the wheelchair, then took out a linen handkerchief and dabbed at the fresh scrapes and cuts. A quick look told him everything was going to be okay.
“Thank you and may God bless you,” the grateful child told the stranger.
Too shook up for words, the man simply
watched the boy! push his wheelchair-bound brother down the sidewalk toward their home.
It was a long, slow walk back to the Jaguar. The damage was very
noticeable, but the driver never bothered to repair the dented side door. He kept the dent there to remind him of this message: “Don’t go through life so fast that someone has to throw a brick at you to get your attention!” God whispers in our souls and speaks to our hearts. Sometimes when we don’t have time to listen, He has to throw a brick at us. It’s our choice to listen or not.
Thought for the Day:
If God had a refrigerator, your picture would be on it.
If He had a wallet, your photo would be in it.
He sends you flowers every spring.
He sends you a sunrise every morning Face it, friend – He is crazy about
you!
Send this to every “beautiful person” you wish to bless.
God didn’t promise days without pain, laughter without sorrow, sun without
rain, but He did promise strength for the day, comfort for the tears, and
light for the way.
Read this line very slowly and let it sink in…
If God brings you to it, He will bring you through it.
April 14, 2007 at 6:31 am
you were right in your first thought about the war in Iraq and afghanistan. We were attacked many times by idealogs residing in those places and other places. When they became powerful enough and brazen enough we acted to defend ourselves. The trail to their fountain of power resides not in the countries we are fighting in but in the minds of their teachers and icons. The Iraqis and the afghanies along with most of the people in that region are a divided people and will not survive into the future. If we become divided we also will perish. Do not allow thoughts that cause doubt of our purpose in this war to reside within you. Or you will become a divider of this flock and allow the insane ideas to destroy what our forefathers fought for and died for and faithfully delivered to the world. We need look no further than our own faith to realize what a miracle the United States is in this world. As to our next leader? I am sure any person that is elected by a united mind will suffice, with God’s help lead us closer to our father’s truths.
April 16, 2007 at 11:49 am
Katargethe,
Interesting…
Neil,
Welcome to “Along the Shore.” Good insights. You views and comments are welcome here.
Geoff
May 8, 2007 at 7:06 pm
I can’t believe that you thought this war was a good idea in the first place. We could have kept the effort more discrete with covert operations and probably accomplished much more in the way of finding and removing terrorists. Now that it is an open war, it has turned into another Vietnam we don’t know who the enemy is, no body walks around with taliban T-shirts on or anything. Also how can it be just or right to kill over 600,000 innocent Iraqi civilians, our initial carpet bombings of Iraq were not even aimed at military targets. This war is ridiculous, I didn’t vote for Bush in the first election and definitely didn’t vote to re elect him. Does God really want us to be killing each other, over 600,000 Iraqi civilians are dead now because of the United states intervention in Iraq, did we really have the right to end all of these lives, I don’t think so.
May 8, 2007 at 8:28 pm
Eric,
Welcome to “Along the Shore.” Your input and views, even if they do not agree with mine, are welcome here.
Yes, I did think the invasion was a strategic step in “taking the offensive” in the war against fundamentalist Islamic terrorism. But if you actually read my original post, you should have been able to see that my thinking has gone through something of a transformation.
600,000 innocent civilians? Carpet bombings not aimed at military targets? Please … you’ve been watching way too much of the kook conspiracy TV.
We do not utilize anything that resembles “carpet bombing.” We don’t have to. We have incredible technology that allows us to take out the smallest targets with little collateral damage.
I feel bad about it, but i feel the need to be a bit straightforward and harsh. Unfortunately, instead of contributing something constructive to the conversation, i.e. “What would victory look like?” or “How can we get out of this situation with security and dignity?” you choose to make a mini-rant against George W. Bush and quote some ridiculous, unsubstantiated number of “civilian casualties.”
No, I do not believe that the God I serve, the Lord Jesus Christ, desires that we should be “killing one another.” Indeed, he has told us to “turn the other cheek” when struck. But, then again, He did not say that we should kneel down on a prayer mat and wait to be decapitatated.
Apparently, the god these Muslim extremists serve (not the same as my God, BTW, despite what George W. bush and others may say) does, indeed, seem to take joy in humans killing and maiming one another. That’s what’s so scary.
Such a worldview and an attempt at world domnation (which is what these extremists really want) is something that Americans, even Christians, must be prepared to fight against.
Unfortunately, this is a conflict that cannot be settled with “conflict resolution,” “chats” over coffee, negotiations, or holding hands and singing, “Let’s Give peace a Chance.”
It’s so much more complicated than that. Even if we had not invaded and begun this battle in Iraq, in a few years we would be doing the same thing somewhere else.
Geoff
May 8, 2007 at 11:36 pm
Geoff,
sorry for the earlier post I was having a bad day and was in a ranting kind of mood, and now I wish I could erase that comment because I feel like an angry stupid person. The number I was quoting was from a controversial study being done at Johns Hopkins University’s Bloomberg School of Public Health and it doesn’t even really relate to what I was trying to say. It was a somewhat usless comment containing no real pertinent data, it was as you put it a rant. I have been trying to stay informed about the war and have been reading the news everyday and in doing so developed a somewhat cinical view of life due to all the negative things I have been reading, and my comment was the result of this. I have been feeling kind of lost and feel the same way as some of the other commenters in not knowing who to vote for in the upcoming election. Anyway sorry for the rude introduction, I guess I’ll just try to relax a little and keep saying my prayers.
God bless.
May 9, 2007 at 7:05 am
Eric,
No need to be sorry. Indeed, I’m sorry for the harshness of my response to you. It was not very Christ-like of me. I do apologize.
I think we all feel a bit frustrated and lost when it comes to the Iraq situation. We all have some sort of picture of how we think things ought to be … but most of us don’t ever really see the U.S. “getting there” in Iraq. It does not appear, to me, that the people there desire the goals of democracy, freedom, etc… that we desire for them.
So … like most I just don’t know. I’m struggling. That’s why I wrote the original post. I had no idea it would draw the thousands of pageviews that it has. I have 200-250 looks per day at this post through search engines. The public is, obviously, searching for answers.
I hope we find some.
Meanwhile, I, too, am struggling with a candidate for prez in 2008.
Please stop by and visit often. You are welcome to come here and discuss and struggle with the rest of us. I plan to do another post on Iraq soon.
God Bless,
Geoff
October 24, 2007 at 7:53 am
God Bless U2.
October 24, 2007 at 7:59 am
And Semperfi Stranger! Respectfully if you get the chance. Greghall53@msn.com.
October 24, 2007 at 8:12 am
Greg!!
It’s been a while. Where have you been? Lost in the world of gaming?
Geoff
November 15, 2007 at 12:42 pm
Howdy Geoff,
I too struggled with the very same concerns, which then intensely drove me into a deep study of Islam, and Islamic nations.
I found such twisted and perverse teachings being handed down by the leaders of the middle east countries that would make the skin on the back of a turtle crawl at freeway speeds.
I agree with you on that response of “kook conspiracy TV”, I can only pray that everyone would study Islam, learn the facts, and see the true events of the middle east. We are not the killers of 600,000 Muslims, those figures are out of context, the true context is; the Muslims have Killed over 600,000, and all the nations involved with us have killed an average of 5 to every 100 killed by muslims, as where our strikes have been far more articulate, and directed at actual enemies rather than random targets, and these muslims have killed around the world, not just in the Iraq area of War.
Now for the important information, what helps me see into this struggle, is the fact that more and more muslims are seeing how wrong Islam is, and turning from the violence, and those Iraqi’s who have turned from Islam or never were fully Muslim, ALL want us to remain, they claim it does help curb the injustice of humanity.
They have a slight improvement of freedom with our presence, and it gives them a chance to see the truth outside of Islam.
Those we fight hide, and any thing that allows them to hide they will kill their own children to maintain it.
After learning these things, the picture given in Malachi lights up in glory. Not knowing the history of the middle east, the message in chapter 1 isn’t real clear, but when you see the history back to the Moorish and beyond, you see who we are up against, and that we are doing the WILL of GOD. We have destroyed the strong holds, the buildings, and the cities of our enemies, and they have run into hiding in the caves of EDOM. We can’t stop untill we insure the human rights have been fully offered, and the Word of God left with the innocent people of the region.
If we walk out, we LOSE the war. It is a war waged AGAINST us, we did NOT attack them first in any way shape or form. It is not a war of OIL, it IS a war of HATRED, VENGEANCE, RACISM, and GREED, all on the part of ISLAM.
Sharia law is coming to your streets a piece at a time every day. In the news yesterday I saw a news article saying we need to give up our rights to privacy, I saved the article, I’ll post it next.
Some sites to help you see how bad, and see the real Islam are;
http://www.memritv.org (important info)
http://www.investigateislam.com (exmulsim)
http://www.prophetofdoom.net (clear Quran study)
http://www.anti-cair-net.org (important info)
http://www.jihadwatch.org
These will give you so much insight to Islam, and the full video’s not edited pieces you see on the news, you will see the truth and fully.
Prophet of Doom is a very well done simplified presentation of the Qu’ran, it is free, in mp3, cd audio files ready to record to disc, pdf, and html formats, and a regular book, with sources, and a detailed organized section of quotes from the Qu’ran, all FREE.
InvestigateIslam is a free site also, and very extensive teachings to help turn Muslims away from Islam, exposing the truth of the Qu’ran and Hadith and other books, by an Ex-Arab Muslim.
Anti-cair-net is a site that exposes what is being spoken to muslims in America on thier site CAIR (Counsel of American Islamic Relations), and what is being done, it is the front line of the war over the net INSIDE the USA.
Jihad watch is extreemly shocking facts, and videos and unedited news showing the real Islamic movement.
MemriTV is excellent short videos, translated to many languages, in an attempt to show the real islamic teachings, TV broadcasts, and mentality of muslims in the middle east, it is the Middle East Media Research Institute, a non-prophet organization, 501c3.
In 14 years of study, I have to say these sites, stand far above the hundreds of false sites by their credability and teaching. They offer sound facts, and back it all up in black and white.
I have here a shocking example of one thing, a piece from a book to Muslims, and if you have been confronted by a muslim, and tried to show him the truth, these steps here will show exactly how he tried to debate you…….. Most muslims will use these very steps like a bible to debate any non-muslim………
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How to Debate and Frustrate Infidels
by Ayesha Ahmed 12 Mar, 2007
Dear brothers and sisters in islam:
We live in kuffar country and daily we have to face the infidels who criticize islam and our prophet, and who want to debate us. In an Islamic country if some one did that all we have to do is to announce loudly what he said and the rest is taken care of by an angry mob. The critic is lynched in no time. End of the story.
However here we don’t have that luxury as yet. Inshallah in forseeble future after we grow by conversions of morons and criminals in prisons, legal and illegal immigration and procreation we will, inshallah, become a majority and will not have to face this problem on daily basis.
However, for the time being following is an approach all muslim brothers and sisters can use when faced with such a pest. Jazakallah Khair. Inshallah the vermin will steer clear of you in future.
1. A popular question is “why islam calls for death of Islamic critics and apostates”. Insist that their info is false. Quote aya “to you your religion and to me my religion”.
2. To answer “Islam spread with sword”, say that it is a big lie spread by the jews and hindus and that quran clearly says “there is no compulsion in religion”.
3. If some one quotes violent ayas from Koran, accuse him of quoting ayas in bits and pieces and cherry picking.
4. If he then quotes full ayas and ayas before and after, than insist that the translation is wrong.
5. If he brings ten different translations than say correct meanings can be understood only by reading Quran in Arabic.
6. If he happens to be well versed in Arabic language than insist that those ayas don’t mean what they appear to mean as they have allegorical meanings.
7. If he is adamant, than say you cannot understand those ayas and it’s context without reading hadith and sira.
8. If he shows up with the hadiths and siras in hand and quotes the context of the violent ayas by referring to hadiths of prophet’s rapes, robberies, assassinations and genocides then insist that “all hadiths and siras are heresay and are false, and only truth is in quran”.
9. If he says Quran is a man made document and wants proof of it’s divinity then refer to the sciences in Quran and the book written by Dr. Bucaile confirming the sciences in our holy book. You can also quote that “Mahatama Gandhi read Quran daily and also spoke highly of it”.
10. If he says that Bucaile was on Saudi payroll and that he nor Gandhi ever changed their religions and that Bucaile was challenged and proven wrong by many experts then challenge him to ask his experts to debate islamists like Zakir Naik.
11. If the pests still hangs around then change the topic and find faults in other religions and their books.
12. If he continues on then use personal attacks and insult him by calling him a jewish aXX XXXXX, a Chinese pig, or a hindu dog.
13. If that does not frustrate him, then ask him how much he is being paid by jews to throw dirt on Al Islam.
14. If he still does not stop then run for his mother and sister and use very filthy language.
15. If he is very stubborn and wants to continue, then curse him like “Burn in hell, you will repent on last day, Allah will get you in your grave” etc.
16. When all of the above has failed, threaten him with bodily harm and end the debate by drum beating and announcing that you won the debate hands down because Koran is the word of allah.
17. If possible anounce about this debate in an islamist website and that you had won it handily. Such announcements do wonders for the iman of muslim website readers and for dawah operations in prisons to convince low IQ prisoners of the truth of Al Islam.
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If you aren’t aware of Sharia law, just know this, if you don’t bow down to Islam and embrace Islam, and pay a tax to be able to be a convert to Islam, a protection fee, then you are to be killed, so that no one is left alive on earth that is not a muslim…
Remain strong in the Lord, know that we are just the nation picked at this point in time to tear down the cities, just before us it was the Russians, and who knows who will be after us, but I believe the full bible, and I know and accept their war is forever, but the nations fighting them are only periodic.
Here in the Mystical Babylon (the city that is not a city, out of the sea of humanity, your monitor a sea of glass mingled with fire as John described 2000 years ago), you have everything at your fingertips to buy, or take part in, and every crime or fornication, and this city encompasses the entire globe, and when it falls, you will know it is the Mystical Babylon…
Don’t be cought up in this whore of nations, just push the word of God and Jesus Christ OUR LORD and SAVIOR…
Not mine, or yours, OURS!
God Bless…
November 15, 2007 at 12:59 pm
This is the news article I mentioned, we do need to speak out about it. Our freedoms will go down the tubes in a flash if we don’t………
God SAVE our country, our freedoms and rights, in the name of Jesus Christ our Lord.
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I copied this from an ABC news web site.
It should be acted on quickly, or that dictatorship mentality will tell us all what to preach in our churches.
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Story Published: Nov 11, 2007 at 12:06 PM PST
Story Updated: Nov 11, 2007 at 12:06 PM PST
By Associated Press
WASHINGTON (AP) – As Congress debates new rules for government eavesdropping, a top intelligence official says it is time that people in the United States changed their definition of privacy.
Privacy no longer can mean anonymity, says Donald Kerr, the principal deputy director of national intelligence. Instead, it should mean that government and businesses properly safeguard people’s private communications and financial information.
Kerr’s comments come as Congress is taking a second look at the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act.
Lawmakers hastily changed the 1978 law last summer to allow the government to eavesdrop inside the United States without court permission, so long as one end of the conversation was reasonably believed to be located outside the U.S.
The original law required a court order for any surveillance conducted on U.S. soil, to protect Americans’ privacy. The White House argued that the law was obstructing intelligence gathering because, as technology has changed, a growing amount of foreign communications passes through U.S.-based channels.
The most contentious issue in the new legislation is whether to shield telecommunications companies from civil lawsuits for allegedly giving the government access to people’s private e-mails and phone calls without a FISA court order between 2001 and 2007.
Some lawmakers, including members of the Senate Judiciary Committee, appear reluctant to grant immunity. Suits might be the only way to determine how far the government has burrowed into people’s privacy without court permission.
The committee is expected to decide this week whether its version of the bill will protect telecommunications companies. About 40 wiretapping suits are pending.
The central witness in a California lawsuit against AT&T says the government is vacuuming up billions of e-mails and phone calls as they pass through an AT&T switching station in San Francisco.
Mark Klein, a retired AT&T technician, helped connect a device in 2003 that he says diverted and copied onto a government supercomputer every call, e-mail, and Internet site access on AT&T lines.
The Electronic Frontier Foundation, which filed the class-action suit, claims there are as many as 20 such sites in the U.S.
The White House has promised to veto any bill that does not grant immunity from suits such as this one.
Congressional leaders hope to finish the bill by Thanksgiving. It would replace the FISA update enacted in August that privacy groups and civil libertarians say allows the government to read Americans’ e-mails and listen to their phone calls without court oversight.
Kerr said at an October intelligence conference in San Antonio that he finds concerns that the government may be listening in odd when people are “perfectly willing for a green-card holder at an (Internet service provider) who may or may have not have been an illegal entrant to the United States to handle their data.”
He noted that government employees face up to five years in prison and $100,000 in fines if convicted of misusing private information.
Millions of people in this country – particularly young people – already have surrendered anonymity to social networking sites such as MySpace and Facebook, and to Internet commerce. These sites reveal to the public, government and corporations what was once closely guarded information, like personal statistics and credit card numbers.
“Those two generations younger than we are have a very different idea of what is essential privacy, what they would wish to protect about their lives and affairs. And so, it’s not for us to inflict one size fits all,” said Kerr, 68. “Protecting anonymity isn’t a fight that can be won. Anyone that’s typed in their name on Google understands that.”
“Our job now is to engage in a productive debate, which focuses on privacy as a component of appropriate levels of security and public safety,” Kerr said. “I think all of us have to really take stock of what we already are willing to give up, in terms of anonymity, but (also) what safeguards we want in place to be sure that giving that doesn’t empty our bank account or do something equally bad elsewhere.”
Kurt Opsahl, a senior staff lawyer with the Electronic Frontier Foundation, an advocacy group that defends online free speech, privacy and intellectual property rights, said Kerr’s argument ignores both privacy laws and American history.
“Anonymity has been important since the Federalist Papers were written under pseudonyms,” Opsahl said. “The government has tremendous power: the police power, the ability to arrest, to detain, to take away rights. Tying together that someone has spoken out on an issue with their identity is a far more dangerous thing if it is the government that is trying to tie it together.”
Opsahl also said Kerr ignores the distinction between sacrificing protection from an intrusive government and voluntarily disclosing information in exchange for a service.
“There is something fundamentally different from the government having information about you than private parties,” he said. “We shouldn’t have to give people the choice between taking advantage of modern communication tools and sacrificing their privacy.”
“It’s just another ‘trust us, we’re the government,”‘ he said.